Rule suggestion : salary cap

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Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by llmolsonll » Mon 10 Dec '12 11:48pm

There are ways to circumvent our 85M$ salary cap, such as incentives which are accounted for after the season and releasing players to resign others during the season. Total players expenses regularly blow the 85M$ actual payroll cap around the league.

Should we move towards a higher payroll or another option such as a luxury tax? (Im pretty sure luxury tax applies on player expenses, cant go around dumping players)

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by barracus79 » Tue 11 Dec '12 8:19am

I'm not really good with league financials, so I'm not familiar with luxury tax or how well it works. however, I wouldn't be against having another $5M to spend ($90M cap) what with the salary demands of the players these days...
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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by JAttractive » Tue 11 Dec '12 4:54pm

I'd like to see 5 million more to spend, this is not the same OOTP when we made that limit. Luxury tax is fine as well.

I don't have a problem with releasing players etc. to circumvent the cap. I think those are interesting decisions/strategies. I didn't think we were even allowed to add incentives to contracts though. Truth is I probably have them in my contracts without even knowing it as I pay 0 attention to that area and thus, if a player asked for them he will get them and I would have no idea.

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by ill16ca » Tue 11 Dec '12 5:21pm

I'm fine with either a $5 million cap increase or a heavy luxury tax, like a 100% tax on spending over $85 million.

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by kq76 » Tue 11 Dec '12 5:41pm

No.

Lower it to 75M. Every few seasons it's, "oh, let's just have another 5M$ to spend". Forget 85M, 15 out of 24 teams in this league have budgets of 75M or less. Add in the other impediments to trying to get better and you guys want to increase the divide even further? Enough already!

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by Checker33 » Tue 11 Dec '12 8:14pm

Im fine with whatever we do. I would prefer we keep a cap, whether its 85 million or some other number.

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by MK82 » Tue 11 Dec '12 8:27pm

kq76 wrote:No.

Lower it to 75M. Every few seasons it's, "oh, let's just have another 5M$ to spend". Forget 85M, 15 out of 24 teams in this league have budgets of 75M or less. Add in the other impediments to trying to get better and you guys want to increase the divide even further? Enough already!
I am with KQ on this.

Increasing the cap does not benefit my team in any way as I do not even have a budget of 85 million. If you want this to be a competitive ass league, drop the cap to 75M. We can go from there.
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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by llmolsonll » Tue 11 Dec '12 9:31pm

MK82 wrote:
kq76 wrote:No.

Lower it to 75M. Every few seasons it's, "oh, let's just have another 5M$ to spend". Forget 85M, 15 out of 24 teams in this league have budgets of 75M or less. Add in the other impediments to trying to get better and you guys want to increase the divide even further? Enough already!
I am with KQ on this.

Increasing the cap does not benefit my team in any way as I do not even have a budget of 85 million. If you want this to be a competitive ass league, drop the cap to 75M. We can go from there.
The league is competitive, everyone has access to the same media money, no advantage based on market size. Everything else is about choices you make as a GM. Its a financial even field.

I dont care about a soft cap at 85M$, but since the cap can be circumvented with incentives, a luxury tax on players expenses makes a lot of sense to me.

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by cubfan377 » Tue 11 Dec '12 10:03pm

I'd like to keep the cap at the current spot and add a luxury tax if it works correctly.

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by MK82 » Tue 11 Dec '12 10:58pm

llmolsonll wrote:
MK82 wrote:
kq76 wrote:No.

Lower it to 75M. Every few seasons it's, "oh, let's just have another 5M$ to spend". Forget 85M, 15 out of 24 teams in this league have budgets of 75M or less. Add in the other impediments to trying to get better and you guys want to increase the divide even further? Enough already!
I am with KQ on this.

Increasing the cap does not benefit my team in any way as I do not even have a budget of 85 million. If you want this to be a competitive ass league, drop the cap to 75M. We can go from there.
The league is competitive, everyone has access to the same media money, no advantage based on market size. Everything else is about choices you make as a GM. Its a financial even field.

I dont care about a soft cap at 85M$, but since the cap can be circumvented with incentives, a luxury tax on players expenses makes a lot of sense to me.
Francois,

How can this be true? How is the financial field even? If my budget only allows me to take on payroll of 59 million, how do I field a team with a 75 million dollar payroll? I would be carrying a negative balance which would preclude me from making offers to free agents. This has happened to me in the past; hence, why I do not have the luxury of offering big money, long-term contracts to the star free agents.

Unless I am missing something and you can explain to me how I field a team with a 75 million dollar payroll, I cannot be convinced that we need to increase the cap.
Last edited by MK82 on Tue 11 Dec '12 11:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by Geoff » Tue 11 Dec '12 11:23pm

Let's keep the cap where it is. The league seems really balanced, why mess with it.
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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by grizzliesgm » Tue 11 Dec '12 11:40pm

I'm good with the cap and financials the way they are. I'm starting to think I am a status quo type of guy...

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by Claybor » Tue 11 Dec '12 11:57pm

Leave the cap or lower it, or possibly lower the amount of cash that teams bring in to make the 'incentives' and dropping of players more difficult.

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by Winnipeg59 » Wed 12 Dec '12 8:41pm

Unless the 85-mil soft cap with huge penalties that would be distributed to the lesser squads works in-game and maybe produces even more financial parity, then I guess we could leave it.

Does anyone know if, in an online league, the $85-mil PLAYER CAP actually works? I suspect that would either not work unless feedback is given AS you make an offer, but would be a huge hassle for the commish refereeing trade offers, unless I'm missing something??
In the manual it says you cannot sign any contracts if above the cap if you have player salary cap set (in our case 85,000,000).
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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by llmolsonll » Wed 12 Dec '12 9:03pm

MK82 wrote:
llmolsonll wrote:
MK82 wrote:
I am with KQ on this.

Increasing the cap does not benefit my team in any way as I do not even have a budget of 85 million. If you want this to be a competitive ass league, drop the cap to 75M. We can go from there.
The league is competitive, everyone has access to the same media money, no advantage based on market size. Everything else is about choices you make as a GM. Its a financial even field.

I dont care about a soft cap at 85M$, but since the cap can be circumvented with incentives, a luxury tax on players expenses makes a lot of sense to me.
Francois,

How can this be true? How is the financial field even? If my budget only allows me to take on payroll of 59 million, how do I field a team with a 75 million dollar payroll? I would be carrying a negative balance which would preclude me from making offers to free agents. This has happened to me in the past; hence, why I do not have the luxury of offering big money, long-term contracts to the star free agents.

Unless I am missing something and you can explain to me how I field a team with a 75 million dollar payroll, I cannot be convinced that we need to increase the cap.
Its an even field because everyone has access to the same media revenues, no market size advantage.

If a team performed poorly for years, cant draw fans due to poor fan interest and keeps building up deficits then its a simple consequence of losing. You must build your team back up with smart drafting and trading. Winning solves the problem and a new era of profit, high budget will start.

Franchises go through ups and downs, winning seasons and rebuilding phases.

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by cubfan377 » Wed 12 Dec '12 9:34pm

llmolsonll wrote:
Its an even field because everyone has access to the same media revenues, no market size advantage.

If a team performed poorly for years, cant draw fans due to poor fan interest and keeps building up deficits then its a simple consequence of losing. You must build your team back up with smart drafting and trading. Winning solves the problem and a new era of profit, high budget will start.

Franchises go through ups and downs, winning seasons and rebuilding phases.
I lived through this with Dawson City/Yukon. Started with 100 loss seasons and no budget. Good luck and winning brought some championships and a huge budget.

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by MK82 » Wed 12 Dec '12 9:35pm

Francois,

I understand your position but, like you said, in order for me to reap the rewards of a higher payroll I need to win. If I have difficulty winning, I will not be able to throw the same kind of money around like Niagara, TB, etc. If, for some reason, I can never field a winning team I will always be at a disadvantage compared to those teams who win an can spend up to $85 million on payroll.

Like KQ mentioned earlier, I do not see any logic in increase the payroll when only 9 out of 24 teams have a budget over and above 75 million. Besides, if the argument is that GMs are finding loopholes to get around the salary cap then the current cap number should remain and we should incorporate a lethal luxury tax which punishes teams trying to circumvent the cap. By increasing the cap and then adding a luxury tax, we are just increasing the cap number GMs can take advantage of.

I do not mind implementing a heavy luxury tax, but it should be on the league's current cap number and not some other inflated number.
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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by MK82 » Wed 12 Dec '12 9:39pm

cubfan377 wrote:
llmolsonll wrote:
Its an even field because everyone has access to the same media revenues, no market size advantage.

If a team performed poorly for years, cant draw fans due to poor fan interest and keeps building up deficits then its a simple consequence of losing. You must build your team back up with smart drafting and trading. Winning solves the problem and a new era of profit, high budget will start.

Franchises go through ups and downs, winning seasons and rebuilding phases.
I lived through this with Dawson City/Yukon. Started with 100 loss seasons and no budget. Good luck and winning brought some championships and a huge budget.
I know this happens, I am not denying it. I am just taking the position that, for some franchises, this is not always the case and it can be a bloody frustrating process.
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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by cubfan377 » Wed 12 Dec '12 9:43pm

MK82 wrote:
I know this happens, I am not denying it. I am just taking the position that, for some franchises, this is not always the case and it can be a bloody frustrating process.
Hence why I think we don't need to adjust the salary cap. It should be a challenge to keep a good core together.

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by MK82 » Wed 12 Dec '12 9:56pm

cubfan377 wrote:
MK82 wrote:
I know this happens, I am not denying it. I am just taking the position that, for some franchises, this is not always the case and it can be a bloody frustrating process.
Hence why I think we don't need to adjust the salary cap. It should be a challenge to keep a good core together.
:thumbup: Agreed.
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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by llmolsonll » Wed 12 Dec '12 11:24pm

MK82 wrote:
cubfan377 wrote:
llmolsonll wrote:
Its an even field because everyone has access to the same media revenues, no market size advantage.

If a team performed poorly for years, cant draw fans due to poor fan interest and keeps building up deficits then its a simple consequence of losing. You must build your team back up with smart drafting and trading. Winning solves the problem and a new era of profit, high budget will start.

Franchises go through ups and downs, winning seasons and rebuilding phases.
I lived through this with Dawson City/Yukon. Started with 100 loss seasons and no budget. Good luck and winning brought some championships and a huge budget.
I know this happens, I am not denying it. I am just taking the position that, for some franchises, this is not always the case and it can be a bloody frustrating process.
Got to disagree with you. Its always the case, the only question is how much time the rebuild will take. When you keep drafting top 5, you should be able to build a strong base for a great team a few years down the road. But that wont happen if you trade your best prospect and young players...Hold on to them and you will win eventually.

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by llmolsonll » Wed 12 Dec '12 11:59pm

Im in favor of a luxury tax which is redistributed afterwards, see revenue sharing in OOTP's manual :

http://manuals.ootpdevelopments.com/ind ... financials

Lets look at top 4 players expenses from last season :

85.5M$
94.8M$
96M$
96.8M$

A 85M$ cap? Who are we kidding here?

How is the league better off :

A) with a 85M$ payroll, meaning you must keep the salaries list under 85M$, dumping players when you need to thus cutting salaries from players' salaries list, then blow the lid off expenses with incentives in the offseason and redistribute nothing throughout the league
B) have a soft cap with heavy luxury tax (100%) which is redistributed to teams with the lowest players expenses (usually the worst teams, dunno how OOTP determines how many teams qualify)

I feel B is the best, we get rid of loopholes allowing us to circumvent the payroll cap and redistribute the $ to teams in need.

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by JAttractive » Thu 13 Dec '12 12:05am

I am cool with keeping it at 85 million. I do believe we are on even playing fields it just takes time to build some franchises back up so that their owners and fans give them the income they need. Quick fixes don't work well unless you are coming off multiple years of success and the fan base is still sticking around.

Honestly a good GM will work the system no matter how you set the cap. If a cap is tight they will target the bargain players and take advantage of the teams that go over-budget. If the cap is high they will have more room to manoeuvre and throw the cash around when they need to. The only reason I prefer the latter is that it's less annoying to me. I hate drafting guys and losing them because of the cap. If I can't re-sign them due to my owner's budget then I can blame myself for not winning enough to build it up. Likewise if the player wants stupid amounts of money and I choose not to sign them, I can blame them for being greedy. However when it's purely the cap that prevents me I get irritated.

Anyway the main reason I voted to increase it is that the player demands and even arbitration awards seem to be out of whack with our cap. The problem is (and I know this) is that probably the game will just continue to increase the player demands and arbitration awards in a never ending cycle. Thus I am quite fine with leaving it. If it ain't broke why fix it?

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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by MK82 » Thu 13 Dec '12 12:20am

Really? Ask Hamilton, Yellowknife and others where that strategy got them? This is an online game. It involves some skill and some luck but, no matter how skilled you are, if luck is not on your side even that strategy does not work. Trust me, I have had numerous top 5 picks take talent hits and then become useless in my years with the CBL. Add to that the fact that trading in this league has decreased drastically and its not as easy as you make it seem.

I have been rebuilding with Ottawa for years now and even with top 10 picks my team is absolute shit. I have signed very good free agents (SP Clayton Hounsell) who have flopped for me but then go to other teams and dominate. I am not going to "tank" for 10 years to get top 5 draft picks when it is not guaranteed. My guy Dominic Pelletier was all 7's across the board when I drafted him and was one of the best draft pick in the draft. Even after promoting him accordingly and giving him regular playing time the bastard's attributes decreased. So, to tell me that a team will always become good is one argument I cannot buy since it has not happened for me, lol.

The current cap is fine, it does not need to be changed to allow good teams to get better when there is no guarantee I will ever have a budget like that. Call me bitter, call me a shitty GM, whatever, but there is no logical reason for the cap to be increased when it is not needed.

I am not trying to argue with you, Francois, or come off as a prick, but there is nothing wrong with the cap so why change it? You want to add heavy luxury taxes to punish those who circumvent the cap, fine, but anything else will not solve the problem.

If you want to add a heavy, heavy luxury tax, you have my vote IF it fixes the problem.
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Re: Rule suggestion : salary cap

Post by MK82 » Thu 13 Dec '12 12:20am

Oops, posted that twice.

I see what you are saying Francois, but it should be done without a further cap increase.
Last edited by MK82 on Thu 13 Dec '12 12:24am, edited 1 time in total.
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