Adding International/Independent FA

For suggestions / requests to improve the league (e.g. rules change proposals, etc)
Post Reply
User avatar
devaneyfan
Posting Freak
Posts: 3435
Joined: Sun 14 Apr '02 7:29pm
Team: Hamilton
Real Name: Jeff
Fav MLB Team: Kansas City Royals

Adding International/Independent FA

Post by devaneyfan » Wed 23 Apr '14 10:34pm

This was an idea from the financials thread that seemed likely to have majority support.

I suggest adding a few international free agents to the free agent pool each season. OOTP can do this automatically, and I would suggest the following:

4 International FA added so they are available for our offseason FA period - perhaps added to the league on January first. If there is a way to set the "quality" of the players, I suggest that they would largely be depth guys with an occasional good player. I would not suggest that we bring in mega talent this way.

I think this will give us slightly more depth and unpredictability heading into FA. It is also very realistic. The low payroll teams in this league would obviously be scouting the globe for additional talent if they were actual $85M/year operations.

Thoughts?

GMwinnipeg
Junior Member
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue 04 Jun '13 11:18pm
Team: Former BC GM
Fav MLB Team: sf giants
Fav NHL Team: sj sharks
Organization Report URL Number: 21

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by GMwinnipeg » Wed 23 Apr '14 11:05pm

I like the idea

User avatar
Claybor
Posting Freak
Posts: 1927
Joined: Sun 10 Aug '03 9:28pm
Team: Kingston
Real Name: Steve
Fav MLB Team: Redsox
Organization Report URL Number: 12
Location: Salem, Va.
Contact:

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by Claybor » Wed 23 Apr '14 11:06pm

Sounds OK to me, although I think the talent level in the league is already a bit too high. I also know that the vast majority will disagree with me.

I have many players in AAA who would easily have made the pros in the CBL 10-15 or more years ago, and quite a few would have been starters. Like most OOTP leagues we will be phasing out all the players with 5 ratings in key categories. We have already done that to the 4's. I prefer a realistic league in which even players the are below average make teams. Very soon we will be what I have always called "all star leagues", where only above average players will play at the major league level.

User avatar
JAttractive
Posting Freak
Posts: 2031
Joined: Thu 11 Sep '03 4:27pm
Team: Niagara
Fav MLB Team: Blue Jays
Fav NHL Team: Leafs - Boycotting
Organization Report URL Number: 11
Location: St. Catharines (Niagara)
Contact:

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by JAttractive » Thu 24 Apr '14 3:29am

I think talent is just about perfect right now, perhaps a bit high but not much. On the other hand it would be nice to have more free agents to choose from so I wouldn't be entirely opposed if these were depth guys.

Also we could consider turning on the new rating system that rates guys relative to the league average. That way you perhaps we will see players with 4 and 5 ratings in the big leagues again.

Halifax
Member
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue 28 Dec '10 1:35pm
Team: Halifax
Organization Report URL Number: 2

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by Halifax » Thu 24 Apr '14 7:47am

devaneyfan wrote:This was an idea from the financials thread that seemed likely to have majority support.

I suggest adding a few international free agents to the free agent pool each season. OOTP can do this automatically, and I would suggest the following:

4 International FA added so they are available for our offseason FA period - perhaps added to the league on January first. If there is a way to set the "quality" of the players, I suggest that they would largely be depth guys with an occasional good player. I would not suggest that we bring in mega talent this way.

I think this will give us slightly more depth and unpredictability heading into FA. It is also very realistic. The low payroll teams in this league would obviously be scouting the globe for additional talent if they were actual $85M/year operations.

Thoughts?

Don't want these added players.

User avatar
JohnHoward
Member
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue 11 Jun '13 9:56pm
Team: Former Edmonton GM
Real Name: John Howard
Fav MLB Team: Braves
Fav NHL Team: Maple Leafs
Organization Report URL Number: 23
Location: New Orleans, LA

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by JohnHoward » Thu 24 Apr '14 11:09am

4's and 5's? I am happy to find 3's sometimes. Adding international FA's will help the teams with high caps and large amounts of cash, but it will hurt low-cap/cash-poor teams that need more than one big player to improve. I am against it.

Oh, and to Kingston, I can take some of those AAA studs off your hands if you want to send them my way. :)

User avatar
ill16ca
Posting Freak
Posts: 1379
Joined: Fri 30 Aug '02 5:12pm
Team: Saskatoon
Real Name: Andrew
Fav MLB Team: Jays
Fav NHL Team: Habs
Organization Report URL Number: 19
Location: Montreal

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by ill16ca » Thu 24 Apr '14 11:33am

Plenty of talent in the league already, IMO. I don't see the need for it.

User avatar
Claybor
Posting Freak
Posts: 1927
Joined: Sun 10 Aug '03 9:28pm
Team: Kingston
Real Name: Steve
Fav MLB Team: Redsox
Organization Report URL Number: 12
Location: Salem, Va.
Contact:

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by Claybor » Thu 24 Apr '14 11:45am

I am shocked that there are actually folks agreeing with me. :shock:

I do think the FA pool has been very light in recent years so I do still see the appeal of this change. My other comments were more general.
Oh, and to Kingston, I can take some of those AAA studs off your hands if you want to send them my way. :)
:D

I hate to say it as I have never really liked it much, but perhaps the rule 5 would alleviate this.

User avatar
devaneyfan
Posting Freak
Posts: 3435
Joined: Sun 14 Apr '02 7:29pm
Team: Hamilton
Real Name: Jeff
Fav MLB Team: Kansas City Royals

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by devaneyfan » Thu 24 Apr '14 12:52pm

By phasing out the 5s do you mean no need for players with 5 contact ratings, for instance, because there are enough 6-10? Since the ratings are tied to the game league avg settings, I'm not sure that matters.

My recent perspective is based on joining 1-week into last season when the well was dry with available talent. While there may be enough talent, It is clear that there isn't enough talent to warrant the $85M cap and financials.

Having fun with the Hawks regardless.

User avatar
Claybor
Posting Freak
Posts: 1927
Joined: Sun 10 Aug '03 9:28pm
Team: Kingston
Real Name: Steve
Fav MLB Team: Redsox
Organization Report URL Number: 12
Location: Salem, Va.
Contact:

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by Claybor » Thu 24 Apr '14 1:09pm

My issues with rating's are more of a pet peeve then anything else so I should just let it go.

If the 'average' contact in the league is 5 then those 5's will be 'average', and if it is 6 then the 6's will be 'average' so it's all relative in the end.

I agree with your overall assessment though and am still with you 100% on lowering the cap being the best way to solve that, but as we know based on the previous thread that isn't going to happen.

User avatar
JohnHoward
Member
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue 11 Jun '13 9:56pm
Team: Former Edmonton GM
Real Name: John Howard
Fav MLB Team: Braves
Fav NHL Team: Maple Leafs
Organization Report URL Number: 23
Location: New Orleans, LA

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by JohnHoward » Thu 24 Apr '14 2:03pm

I don't think I do agree that lowering the 85 million cap will help distribute talent. There are already 5 teams with budget caps that exceed the salary cap, so that is effectively almost 20 per cent of the league that is being constrained. That seems about right to me. In fact it would seem to be that right now the team that benefits the most from the current cap is ... Kingston. With a budget cap of 83 million, Kingston is right at the league salary cap. So the five teams with higher budgets are effectively pulled back to Kingston's cap (or within 2 million of it). So what should we lower the cap to ... 83 million? :)

On the other hand, I am on board with the Rule 5 suggestion. I have tried without success to trade for some mature minor league talent, and I mean players who are 6th or 7th on their organization's depth chart. We need those players.

User avatar
Claybor
Posting Freak
Posts: 1927
Joined: Sun 10 Aug '03 9:28pm
Team: Kingston
Real Name: Steve
Fav MLB Team: Redsox
Organization Report URL Number: 12
Location: Salem, Va.
Contact:

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by Claybor » Thu 24 Apr '14 3:17pm

I do feel like I am hording talent, but I obviously don't want to just give them away. I have been looking for a few seasons now to package a handful of players for something that would help my team, but have not had many offers. The only think that I think would really help me would be top of the line players and they aren't very readily available, and when they are teams generally don't want a handful or pretty good players they want some high potential players. So these players just sit in my minor leagues. I am unsure of what the right answers are to this issue, and it may be that Kingston is just in a very good position (although not quite good enough to actually win anything it seems) right now. I admit that I have not been as focused on the rest of the league as of late and may not have a good grasp of things overall.

User avatar
devaneyfan
Posting Freak
Posts: 3435
Joined: Sun 14 Apr '02 7:29pm
Team: Hamilton
Real Name: Jeff
Fav MLB Team: Kansas City Royals

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by devaneyfan » Thu 24 Apr '14 3:39pm

The CBL used to have a rule 5 draft and I'm unsure why it was dropped.

Winnipeg59
Member
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed 22 Aug '12 6:06pm
Team: Former St. John's
Real Name: David
Fav MLB Team: Blue Jays
Fav NHL Team: Jets + Leafs
Organization Report URL Number: 4
Location: London, ON

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by Winnipeg59 » Thu 24 Apr '14 6:00pm

devaneyfan wrote:The CBL used to have a rule 5 draft and I'm unsure why it was dropped.
Instead of adding more players I would be more inclined to go this route.
Off the top of my head I'm not sure if that means you would also have to revisit the age restrictions at each minors level and the "pro years" at rookie ball (as in relaxing or removing them) too, but would be more in favour of that too. It would be less work policing the minors for the Commish...

1) Makes the 40-man mean something
2) Takes more salary to retain more players, even at league minimum, which means more cap space, which in turn means you have to be more careful about contracts and who you can re-sign
3) Spreads the wealth if there is some hoarding going on to any degree

I know this league is a big fan of internal draft lists for the entry draft. I believe you can do the same with the Rule 5.
David - GM St. John's Explorers 2044-2052
Eastern League Champions - 2047
Atlantic Division Champions - 2044, 2045, 2051

User avatar
JAttractive
Posting Freak
Posts: 2031
Joined: Thu 11 Sep '03 4:27pm
Team: Niagara
Fav MLB Team: Blue Jays
Fav NHL Team: Leafs - Boycotting
Organization Report URL Number: 11
Location: St. Catharines (Niagara)
Contact:

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by JAttractive » Thu 24 Apr '14 9:18pm

I hate rule 5 drafts. Inevitably every year some GM's always fail to pay attention that the rule 5 is approaching, fail to notice a player is actually vulnerable to the rule 5 draft, or simply aren't active enough to fix their rosters and then the rest of us jump on their teams like vultures. I have never, ever lost a player in the rule 5 that amounted to anything but I have stolen some really nice players from GM's and always feel cheap about it.

If we could somehow get every GM to properly update their 40 man rosters I would be much cooler with this. At least with the draft the AI will auto pick for you. With the rule 5 their is no AI to fix "mistakes".

User avatar
Claybor
Posting Freak
Posts: 1927
Joined: Sun 10 Aug '03 9:28pm
Team: Kingston
Real Name: Steve
Fav MLB Team: Redsox
Organization Report URL Number: 12
Location: Salem, Va.
Contact:

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by Claybor » Thu 24 Apr '14 9:21pm

Agreed, that is a major concern.

User avatar
JohnHoward
Member
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue 11 Jun '13 9:56pm
Team: Former Edmonton GM
Real Name: John Howard
Fav MLB Team: Braves
Fav NHL Team: Maple Leafs
Organization Report URL Number: 23
Location: New Orleans, LA

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by JohnHoward » Thu 24 Apr '14 10:08pm

I hear what you guys are saying, and I don't want this discussion to devolve into a debate between the haves and the have-nots, but honestly, which starter in the Niagara line-up would be in danger of losing his job to a Rule 5 pick? Are you saying there may be minor league talent available by Rule 5 that would be good enough to play for Niagara, the most dominant team in this league, but somehow not even good enough to be on some other team's 40 man roster? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.

EDIT: Or is the claim that the other GM's in this league would just not recognize and protect these unobserved talents? We would not pay enough attention? Again, maybe on an abandoned team, but not as a matter of regular practice, I don't think.

User avatar
chrisj
Posting God
Posts: 7979
Joined: Thu 11 Apr '02 11:07am
Team: Calgary
Special: Commissioner
Real Name: Chris
Organization Report URL Number: 22
Location: Edmonton, AB
Contact:

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by chrisj » Thu 24 Apr '14 10:23pm

JAttractive wrote:I hate rule 5 drafts. Inevitably every year some GM's always fail to pay attention that the rule 5 is approaching, fail to notice a player is actually vulnerable to the rule 5 draft, or simply aren't active enough to fix their rosters and then the rest of us jump on their teams like vultures.
This is why it was dropped - but I am open to seeing it come back again. I liked it.

User avatar
devaneyfan
Posting Freak
Posts: 3435
Joined: Sun 14 Apr '02 7:29pm
Team: Hamilton
Real Name: Jeff
Fav MLB Team: Kansas City Royals

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by devaneyfan » Thu 24 Apr '14 10:25pm

JohnHoward wrote: EDIT: Or is the claim that the other GM's in this league would just not recognize and protect these unobserved talents? We would not pay enough attention? Again, maybe on an abandoned team, but not as a matter of regular practice, I don't think.
Yeah, I think this was his point. In earlier CBL days, I recall picking up a couple slick fielding or speedy bench guys via the Rule V but don't recall anyone getting screwed too bad.

And I did used to PM guys who had solid unprotected players since I usually was in a very bad draft slot and would have missed out. :)

User avatar
JAttractive
Posting Freak
Posts: 2031
Joined: Thu 11 Sep '03 4:27pm
Team: Niagara
Fav MLB Team: Blue Jays
Fav NHL Team: Leafs - Boycotting
Organization Report URL Number: 11
Location: St. Catharines (Niagara)
Contact:

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by JAttractive » Thu 24 Apr '14 11:41pm

JohnHoward wrote:I hear what you guys are saying, and I don't want this discussion to devolve into a debate between the haves and the have-nots, but honestly, which starter in the Niagara line-up would be in danger of losing his job to a Rule 5 pick? Are you saying there may be minor league talent available by Rule 5 that would be good enough to play for Niagara, the most dominant team in this league, but somehow not even good enough to be on some other team's 40 man roster? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.

EDIT: Or is the claim that the other GM's in this league would just not recognize and protect these unobserved talents? We would not pay enough attention? Again, maybe on an abandoned team, but not as a matter of regular practice, I don't think.
When I am in a Rule V league I will just run with a 23 or 24 man roster essentially and try to nab a free prospect or two. If the year goes on and the player takes major talent hits, or if I find I need the spot back because I am in a heated battle for a playoff spot, I will just release them at no real loss.

The truth is I am not really using the Rule 5 to upgrade my roster, I use it as a way to replenish my minors. That said, there are times I have also taken defensive infielders or outfielders to fill out my bench when they are still available but you are right, most guys won't beat out the regulars on my team. Generally I try to draft a young pitcher who I will hide in long relief (who cares what he does for me if he only plays in blow outs?) and/or a young hitting prospect who will barely play but is still a warm body if needed. The point is, if your roster is strong enough you won't need a 24th or 25th roster spot. If your rotation is strong they will go deep and you will barely need your pen, if your pen is strong you won't need to cycle through pitchers as often, and if your starting line-up is filled with stars you won't need to pinch hit for them. Basically the bench guys will just be there to spell the starters from time to time so they can rest or to fill in when they go down with injuries. If your team is deep enough, often the 24th and 25th guy barely plays a handful of games anyway. At that point who really cares what they provide? Oh and in the playoffs you need them even less as you can often go down to a 4 man rotation and run with fewer relievers. So if any teams can afford to waste roster spots on Rule 5 players it's the losing teams and the top teams in the league. I am not sure that's who we should be looking to help though.

Lastly I should add that I would be hard pressed right now to find 40 players worth protecting in my system. As a contending team my farm system is depleted and I can't help but feel it's the rebuilding teams that end up being the biggest targets to steal Rule V players from. So before anyone thinks I am trying to protect the "haves" from the "have-nots", I challenge them to find 15 "Rule V eligible" prospects/players (to go along with my 25 man roster) that are worth putting on my 40 man roster.

Winnipeg59
Member
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed 22 Aug '12 6:06pm
Team: Former St. John's
Real Name: David
Fav MLB Team: Blue Jays
Fav NHL Team: Jets + Leafs
Organization Report URL Number: 4
Location: London, ON

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by Winnipeg59 » Fri 25 Apr '14 6:32am

Great discussion. All valid points. It would appear this is headed to "keep things the way they are", which is fine.

Given the points raised about the Rule 5 then the original idea of adding new "international FA's" might be even worse as new IFA's might indeed be good enough for a "have team" to displace a roster spot, in which case the displaced player (if options are available) might go back to AAA and then that team is deeper still (unless the cap prevents that). And even in the case of IFA's, GM's would have to be fairly active so that they properly bid on those FA's when they come up.

In fact "inactive GM's" can be a problem for almost any scenario, versus active (and good) ones, when you think of it. But I do see the point of the "game" being able to compensate in certain instances...

To me, the Rule 5 is simply the lesser of two evils (introducing talented IFA's and spreading the minor league wealth) being discussed.

Personally I'm fine with continuing the way things are now. There's a challenge in every level playing field, regardless of how it's leveled. We do have the cap in place in CBL, which is different from MLB in real life! So maybe that's "our" leveler and spreader of wealth to a degree, as opposed to the Rule 5? Plus we also have the "age limits" in the mid-minors and also the "pro years" in the rookie level of minors (I think I recall reading at some point "age limits" will be a "setting" in OOTP15) which at least churns the minors below AAA. I guess we'll just have to rely on the AAA players to deny minor league deals eventually, if they are good enough to play somewhere in the majors?

It may just take a few more seasons for the balance of power to shift a bit? Speeding that process along (which is understandable in an online league where it's more fun to be better, sooner), at the risk of assuming, might have been what started this thread?!?
David - GM St. John's Explorers 2044-2052
Eastern League Champions - 2047
Atlantic Division Champions - 2044, 2045, 2051

User avatar
JohnHoward
Member
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue 11 Jun '13 9:56pm
Team: Former Edmonton GM
Real Name: John Howard
Fav MLB Team: Braves
Fav NHL Team: Maple Leafs
Organization Report URL Number: 23
Location: New Orleans, LA

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by JohnHoward » Fri 25 Apr '14 7:54am

I think we would all agree that teams would use Rule 5 for a variety of reasons. A strong team like Niagara would indeed be able to find "draft and carry" talent that could occupy a dormant 24 or 25 spot on a stacked roster. A team like Edmonton, with thin talent even among starters and very little depth, would be looking for active players who could contribute immediately. From my historical replays I was shocked to find that in the 1960's teams would sometimes use Rule 5 picks for 3rd catchers, which strikes me as absurd. So a variety of approaches should be expected, no doubt.

Also, it is hard to dispute that any team in this league would have a difficult time justifying a full 40 man roster. But in my view that is primarily a result of the small yield from draft classes and not the lack of viable mid-range talent. These are old rosters. Look around and you will see very few young players on the 40 man rosters.

I agree with the view that the "balance of power is shifting". That happens in every league. I think we are all doing a good job of protecting and/or helping our own teams in the process, as we should be doing.

User avatar
cubfan377
Senior Member
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun 18 Jan '09 9:07am
Team: Yukon
Real Name: Greg
Fav MLB Team: Cubs
Fav NHL Team: Blackhawks
Organization Report URL Number: 24
Location: Indiana/Alabama

Re: Adding International/Independent FA

Post by cubfan377 » Fri 25 Apr '14 11:02am

In my mind it makes sense to keep the Rule 5 out of the league. It would be easier to have more trade blocks posted with your quality AAA guys or browse through the teams in the game yourself.

I have only gone through one off season in a solo league with OOTP 15, but the 8 international free agents they had were all bench guys with 1.5 to 2 stars. I would be ok using that system or giving us all a chance to pick random historical players that Chris can import and generate a fictional name. This would allow us to add any number we want in a given year and change up the quality of player.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest